Pastor, blogger and grace addict
The
False Promise of the Prosperity Gospel: Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce
Meyer
Posted:
08/21/2013 11:37 am
I have been
preaching for 20 years. Yesterday I did something that I have never done before
in a sermon. I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name. I
said:
If you listen to
Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, if you take what they teach seriously, it will not
be good for you. It will be detrimental to your long-term growth as a follower
of Jesus.
(You can
watch my sermon here.)
I used to
think that their error was so blatantly obvious that they could just be
ignored. I was wrong. They are massively growing in popularity in the
evangelical world and are seen as credible and helpful. Before I'm inundated
with questioning emails I want to share why I distrust these two and think you
should as well. So, don't shoot me -- at least not yet.
When I was a
kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my
friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play
with my toys. Joel and Joyce are the latter. They both teach a twisted form of
Christianity that teaches obedience, giving and faith as a way to get things
from God. They are both products of what is known as the Prosperity Gospel and
The Word of Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith Movement.
Dangers of the Prosperity Gospel
John Piper
does a great job of defining what the Prosperity Gospel is and why it is so
sinister. Please take a few minutes to watch this before moving on the
critiques of Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen:
Joyce Meyer
When I first
heard her tell her story I was deeply moved and impressed. She is an amazing
example of overcoming hurts and abuse. She will forever have my admiration and
respect in that regard. Furthermore, she gives spectacular advice. If my wife
or if one of my daughters went to her in a moment of crisis, I believe they
would return with magnificently helpful advice. If they went to her for
teaching, they would return with deadly heresy.
False
Doctrine
1. She
teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross (listen here):
"He could have
helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your
hands, at that point he couldn't do nothing for himself anymore. He had become
sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin."
2. She
teaches that Jesus went to Hell and became the first-born again man (listen here):
"Do you know
something? The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first
human being that was ever born again. Now that was real it happened when he was
in hell."
3. She
teaches that Jesus paid for our
sins in Hell:
"There is no
hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting.
You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took
your place in hell" -From The Most Important Decision You Will Ever
Make
4. She teaches that words have
power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words.
5. She
teaches that you need special revelation from God to understand what she
teaches because it is NOT contained in the Bible (listen here):
"The Bible
can't even find any way to explain this. Not really. That's why you've got to
get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I'm telling you. I've
got to just trust God that He's putting it into your spirit like He put it into
mine." From "What Happened
From the Cross to The Throne"
"Now spirits
don't have bodies, so we can't see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe
there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning
that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed
statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I'm
supposed to say to you." From "Witchcraft & Related Spirits"
(Part 1) - 2 A-27 Audiotape)
6. She teaches
that she is no longer
a sinner.
Unfortunately
I could continue with examples of her utter misuse of scripture, false teaching
and blatant heresy. In America, Christians have an embarrassment of riches. We
can buy more books, download more podcasts and tune into more helpful teachers
than anyone else on the planet. The lies that she teaches are easily lost in
the hum of all the great teachers we hear. But this is not the case in the
third world.
In many
other countries their resources are far fewer. Uneducated pastors, who are
doing their very best and uninformed Christians have this garbage pumped into
their countries through radio waves and TV broadcasts. Because Joyce Meyer is
endorsed here, she is trusted there. And, she can afford to spread her message
with the money she makes from American Christians who buy her books, CDs and
who attend her conferences. Her influence is severely disrupting the church in
the third world. Her teachings are the unfortunate starting point for
Christians in the third world and it is birthing even greater heresies.
The
devastating reality that we have to come to grips with is that when we support
her here, we support the churches she is undoing there.
Financial
Concerns
There is
nothing wrong with being wealthy. I love it when Christians are rich. That
should mean more money to fund the mission. But there is a line to how much
money we as leaders should spend on ourselves. I don't know where the line is,
but it is somewhere before the ministry purchasing million dollar homes for us
and our kids. That line is somewhere before purchasing us a $10 million private
jet. The line is somewhere before the ministry spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces
of furniture. That equates to $3,845.56 per item. That line is somewhere before
spending so egregiously that the U.S. Senate investigates us. Joyce Meyer lands
on the other side of that line.
The
following link includes audio from Joyce Meyer. Around 5:30 she is asked if
people will get more money back to them if they give financially to her
ministry.
Not only
does she teach giving as a way to leverage more money from God, she is reckless
with desperate people. She is not at all concerned if people give to her
instead of paying bills. This is intolerable!
Questionable
Example and Lack of Accountability
I challenge
you to watch a typical message by Joyce Meyer. Here are a few of things you
will notice:
She pauses
about every five minutes for applause. And if people don't applaud she is
likely to say something like, "I'm preaching better than you're
acting."
She talks
about herself constantly. She is the main character in every story she tells.
Even when she talks about herself in a self-deprecating way, some how it comes
across in a way that causes people to admire her more.
God talks to
her and reveals new information to her... a lot!
Her ministry
lacks real accountability. Her family and her close friends are the governing
board. This is an organization that receives almost $100 million dollars
annually, and with no substantive accountability.
Conclusion
for Joyce Meyer
What I wrote
and linked in the first section should have been enough to completely remove her
from our sphere of trust. Her doctrine is horrific. Her hermeneutics are
horrible. She is a woman who seems to have an unrestrained love for money and
applause. Her finances are questionable at best. Her example is questionable at
best. Her impact on desperate people here, as well as churches and pastors
around the globe is wildly destructive.
I lament
with you a sense of loss if she was a teacher you trusted. I lament that
someone who is so wrong has so much influence with so many. I do not regret,
however, pointing to her as a false teacher and as one who should be rejected.
Joel Osteen
Like Joyce
Meyer, Joel Osteen has some really great things to say. He is encouraging and
the man is certainly happy. This should not be held against him.
The man is
confused on theology. He has much of the same doctrinal misunderstandings as
does Joyce Meyer. They come from the same tradition. His doctrine is difficult
to discern for many because he won't talk about doctrine. He won't talk about
theology. He quickly back pedals when asked hard questions, as seen here in an interview with Larry King.
In fairness,
Joel published a letter of
apology after this interview.
While I
commend him for his humility and courage to publicly declare that he was wrong,
this is just one of too many instances. He frequently misunderstands important
matters of faith and doctrine when being interviewed. He repeatedly gets the
Gospel wrong. And he does so when talking to millions.
If we take
Joel at his word, our only conclusion is that he is either incapable or
unwilling to understand and explain how the Gospel intersects with all of life.
We recently
hosted Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answerman) at SMCC. He has some very helpful
insights (here
and here)
into Joel Osteen's confused views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:
Joel Osteen
and Prosperity Gospel
The
Prosperity Gospel is much like all other religions in that it uses faith, it
uses doing good things to leverage material blessings from God. Essentially,
use God to get things from God.
"God has
already done everything He's going to do. The ball is now in your court. If you
want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy,
you're going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly
declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family" From Your
Best Life Now, p.132
"If you are
believing for your child to find God, go help somebody else's child to develop
a relationship with God. If you're struggling financially, go out and help
somebody who has less than you have ... f you want to reap financial blessings,
you must sow financial seeds in the lives of others ... If you want to see
healing and restoration come to your life, go out and help somebody else get
well" From Your Best Life Now, pp. 224, 250-51
This is not
the Gospel. This is a false Gospel. Joel teaches that we open ourselves to God
to get more from God. He teaches that we use our words to speak into existence
a better reality. This straight from the Word of Faith Movement. This is not
what is taught throughout the New Testament. Consider what the Apostle Paul
wrote. And remember that he wrote this while in prison.
Philippians
4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern
for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am
not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever
the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to
have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every
situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I
can do all this through him who gives me strength.
Conclusion
When I was
in seminary, Heather and I were poor. There were seasons in which I worked 70+
hours a week while taking a full-time Master's load. There were times that I
had to sleep every other day so that I could get all my work done. This was an
extended period of exhausting financial stress.
During this
time, I remember reading something from Joel Osteen. He and his wife claimed by
faith a new house that they wanted. Joel was unsure, but his wife Victoria was
confident. And she lovingly chastised him for his lack of faith. Sometime
later, they purchased that house. Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking
through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind. As I
walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for
what Joel is teaching to be true. I don't know if you can understand how
desperately I wanted it to be true.
I wanted
relief and I wanted more. But I knew that it wasn't true. I knew that my
exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel.
I'm educated and well read. I've haven't just read the Bible, I've translated
large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek. I think I understand it.
I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment. But for a moment,
I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.
What about
the millions of others who are desperate, searching, hoping and vulnerable
without the discernment? We owe it to them to not tolerate a false gospel any
longer.
If you made
it to the end of this blog post, congratulations. This is a thick and heavy
subject. Even though I've written much, this only begins to scratch the surface
of the repugnant nature of the Prosperity Gospel.
Rick Henderson is a
pastor who blogs at churchismessy.com.
This post first appeared
on his blog.
27 comments:
Excellent article - these aren't the only two, though.
What a blessing and sadly so true.
Enjoying this article before Finance Board meetings!
Enjoying this article during Finance Board meeting (I am not in the meeting!)
I am repeatedly challenged by the unspoken doctrine of poverty that is highlighted as a necessity to Christian growth. Most recently, I was serving in the Mothers of Charity (Mother Teresa's order) in an AIDS hospice. I want to believe that God can (and often does) bless me financially. Where it gets challenging is when I want to KEEP the money for myself to make my life more comfortable. I am honored to be a conduit for cash to those whose need is so much greater than mine. I don't want to do it as a form of an "anti-prosperity" gospel any more than I want to operate in "I will give to God so He will give me more" stuff. It is ALWAYS about being obedient (whether in the desert of temptation or in the riches of Solomon's temple) that my intent must be committed to. Great work on filtering through a bunch of gobbly-goop.If that teaching were all true, there are millions of Christians who are currently starving around the world who would have crawled out of that hole a long time ago. Western Christianity would be well served to get their spiritual heads glued on tighter...our day is coming. The Prosperity stuff is deception from the pit.
These days it is so easy for us to get deceived by people such as these. A lot of Christians,and dare I say it - Salvationists - are ignorant of many of the 'scriptures' that these people teach, because their knowledge of the Bible is so shallow. Many can name all their favourite characters in popular television programmes but do not know the basics of Scripture. What is telling is when people have no idea where to find the Bible reading when it's announced by the preacher. These days, multimedia is a godsend for the ignorant.
In TSA this has, in my opinion, come about because of the demise of Corps Cadet classes - young people are not taught biblical knowledge in depth, and so it is in other denominations as well. That is why people like Joyce Mayer are so popular. They are personable, and people think that, as they appear so knowledgeable, that they are saying the truth, when actually they are not.
The Bible warns us that we could be taken in by false prophets:
St Matthew’s gospel[ The Tree and Its Fruit ] “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.
2 Peter 2Verse 1[ The Danger of False Teachers ] But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them.
1 John 4 verse 1[ Discerning False Prophets ] Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.
What we all need to search after is the spiritual gift of discernment, so that we can counter the claims of these people with those of the true gospel. We will only do that by reading and studying God's word and applying it to our lives.
You have to hand it to the Jehovah's Witnesses - their bible study is intense and constant. We are fortunate to hold a congregation's attention for 20 minutes at a time. What spiritual defences are we building up for our people when we experience the onslaught of the devil's attacks? He's laughing his head off at us, because he knows we will compromise in the face of a reasoned - although not scriptural - argument, because we have no defences.
Our meetings are mainly singing, basic prayer, bible reading(s)more singing, musical offerings by the sections, a short sermon, more singing and a benediction. We should be spending more time on the Word of God - it is really inspiring when you get into it. Sadly many are not interested.
We need to wake up. Life is not a rehearsal - we are not given a second shot at it.
How can we discern false teachers? (2 Parts)
Matthew 7:13-23 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
False prophets are particularly dangerous because they appear to be genuine. They seemingly have the credentials of authority. Jesus calls them ‘sheep’s clothing’ When the shepherd watched his flocks upon the hillside, his garment was a sheepskin, worn with the skin outside and the fleece inside. But a man might wear a shepherd’s dress and still not be a shepherd. The prophets had acquired a conventional dress. Elijah had a mantle and that mantle had been a hairy cloak. That sheepskin mantle had become the uniform of the prophets, just as the Greek philosophers had worn the philosopher’s robe. But sometimes that garb was worn by those who had no right to wear it.
The outward forms would incline one to believe these false prophets to be reliable guides. They may wear a distinctive garb which sets them apart as leaders. They may have the title ‘reverend.’ They may be men who hold positions of religious leadership. They may well have graduated from a divinity school. Indeed, they might even be seminary professors.
But these false prophets can be detected by their fruits. Judging by external forms is risky; judging (if you prefer, discerning) on the basis of fruits is absolutely necessary and part of our responsibility. ‘The proof of the root is in the fruit.’ Good trees produce good fruit, and rotten trees, bad fruit. But, what are these fruits? One must be very careful here, for false prophets are not without religious activities. A false prophet is often accompanied by deceptive signs and by seeming wonders. Some of these are suggested in Matthew 7:22: “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?”’
We should expect false prophets to engage in acts of kindness and charity. We should expect them to perform deeds which suggest miraculous power. And we should expect that these deeds be performed under the pretext of being done by God’s power and to His glory.
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
...cont...
We should expect false prophets to be accompanied by religious works, often unusual and spectacular, done ostensibly in the name of God. Satan willingly gives the glory to God in such cases, so long as ultimately he is able to deceive people and cause them to their allegiance and obedience him.
But are these religious activities the fruits of which the Master spoke? If not, what are they? The Scriptures frequently describe the fruits of the false prophets, so that we are left with little doubt as to what we should look for. I believe we can see the fruits of the false prophets falling into three categories.
(1) The first category of the fruits of the false prophet is their doctrine. False prophets speak from their own delusion, not by divine command (Jeremiah 23:16,21,25; Ezekiel 13:2). They do not proclaim or defend God’s word, but deny it (Jeremiah 23:17). In particular they deny unpleasant subjects such as impending judgment (Jeremiah 6:14; 28:17; Ezekiel 13:10). They offer temporary and partial relief to pressing problems (Jeremiah 8:11). Mainly, they tell people precisely what they want to hear (1 Kings 22:8, 13; 2 Timothy 4:3-4). Concerning the way of salvation they deny the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and they reject the work of Christ on the cross (2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:2-3).
(2) The second category of the fruits of the false prophets is the effect of their teaching in the lives of men. Invariably it leads to a rejection of God’s word, a rejection of biblical authority, a division among the saints (Jeremiah 23:2,14) and a life of sensuality (2 Peter 2:2). They attempt to lead men away from the truth of the gospel (Acts 13:8), and to deceive genuine Christians with false doctrine (Mark 13:22). This is also evident from the pastoral epistles (1 and 2Timothy and Titus) where Paul speaks of the need of sound or healthy doctrine (1 Tim. 4:6; 2 Tim. 4:3; Tit. 1:9; 2:1).
(3) Finally, there is the fruit of the false teachers as evidenced in their own moral character. They are easily distinguished by their pride (2 Peter 2:10), their greed (Jeremiah 8:10; Titus 1:11; 2 Peter 2:3,14) and immorality (Jeremiah 23:11,14; 2 Peter 2:14). They are men dominated by the flesh (2 Peter 2:10,12; 3:3). They prey upon the weak and the guilt-ridden (2 Timothy 3:6-7; 2 Peter 2:14,13). While they profess to know God, by their deeds they deny Him (Matthew 7:22-23; 2 Timothy 3:5; Titus 1:16). While they delight in authority, they refuse to submit to it (2 Peter 2:10).
“A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?” (Luke 6:39).
There are many godless guides who would lead us to the wide gate and the way which leads to destruction. These false teachers are not only blind themselves, but they lead others to destruction with them. It is the Lord Who will pronounce the final verdict and Who will sentence the false prophets to everlasting torment.
This is an excellent article. Although quite long, unfortunately it only scratches the surface of this evil that pervades our churches.
We are warned in scripture that there will be a lot of this in the last days, where people don't want sound doctrine - they are so worldly minded that they fall hook, line and sinker for the promises that 'obedience' brings prosperity.
Even Christians hanker more after the things they will leave behind on death than the living gifts that are ours when we wholly trust in God and are led by His Holy Spirit.
The apostle Paul is right when he says he has learned in whatever state he is in to be content - The Lord meets all our needs, not all our wants, and if we are dissatisfied with what we have, then we need to repent of this sin before God. An old SA chorus said 'He is all I need, all I need. Jesus is all I need'.
Of course there are rules of obedience and giving, but they should be obeyed and given in and with love. God is no man's debtor, and he rewards us spiritually with blessings beyond number when we commit fully to Him and read and trust His word. That's all we need to do.
Personally, I dislike pastor bashing full stop. The crux of the 2 pastors mentioned above is that they long to draw ppl to Jesus! Do you really think in fighting and pastor bashing is helpful to the kingdom of God being built? Is it helpful to drawing ppl to Jesus? NO!!
Pretty sure thousands of ppl are getting saved through their ministry. So you disagree, so what?!! Who are you to judge? God? Leave the judgements to God and get on with the business of building God's kingdom, not tearing it down.
To Paula Hamilton
Did you actually watch the video of John Piper which was highlighted in the article? if so, you'd realise that these 2 'pastors' are proclaiming a false gospel. That is certainly not worth following.
I don't think the article writer is 'pastor-bashing'. He's just trying to make us think about those who preach to us - they're not always all that they seem. The Bible says that many will come in Christ's name and will deceive many - well, these are just 2 of them. I've been taken in by Ms Meyer in the past - but long before this article appeared I realised that she was not genuinely Christian - why would her and her entourage go to the desperately poor people in Africa and promise them they would be rich by extracting money from them? It's obscene.
God will judge for sure, but they're only trying to give you some sound advice to follow.
It may be wise of you to heed it.
It's time to call a spade a spade. The popular teaching of "Health, Wealth and Happy Hormones" in many of the largest Xian churches today (and many small ones too) is nothing more than old-fashioned witchcraft cloaked in Xian symbolism. If ever there was a bonafide Xian heresy (along with fundamentalism) this one absolutely takes the cake! (as a matter of fact, come to think of it, they're both borne out of the same warped mindset.)
When we think that we can cajole, manipulate and control God the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer of the Universe, seen and unseen, via some magic formula (and as evangelical protestants, that usually entails throwing Bible verses at him) what then is really the difference between our faith and what the ancient Canaanites for instance, (and many other ancients before them)believed millennia ago, that the Hebrew prophets so eloquently railed against??!!
Unlike Yahweh, the gods were synonymous with nature and were subject to a realm above them known as the metadivine. (which was just a fancy way of
saying, "the realm above the gods.")
Through elaborate rituals the worshipper, and the whole community for that matter, could appease the gods to keep them, out of anger, from sending calamity, while at the same time manipulate the gods by sending some magic formula over their heads into the realm above them, to assure fertility, prosperity and health.
When we think we can do the same thing (and once again as evangelical protestants, usually with our Bibles!) and get the same intended manipulative results, we're subconsciously saying that there's something above God which he is subject to (the human language of the Bible?) and we bring him down to the exact same level as the Ba'als and Asherahs of Canaan. We then become idolaters!
If we're going to believe in such garbage, then why even bother going to church when we can just join a witch's coven and not have to be in least bit concerned about all of the ethical content in the Xian faith?
What's more, so much of the prosperity gospel and seed faith, etc. is just the result of blatantly taking scripture out of context. One of the most popular of the televangelists from years ago, centered his whole belief system and ministry, around the second verse of the 3rd epistle of John which was nothing more than a salutation to the letter! (uh duh,)
I too, along with Pastor Henderson, am a grace addict and see all unexpected good things sent to me as gifts of grace given to me by my Creator to help make this world a better place before I leave it---not so that I can build more barns or because I'm one of God's favorite, special children who discovered how to unlock the secrets of the universe via some magic formula.
God is the Creator and I'm the creature. God's will is Supreme, not mine and I for one kind of like it and prefer to keep it that way!
Daryl Lach
USA Central
"You Must Go Home By the Way of the Cross, To Stand With Jesus in the Morning!"
I don't subscribe to prosperity doctrine, but I do believe giving brings blessing, mostly in the form of feeling great about giving! I'm not saying I agree with everything these ppl preach, but I'm not against them either. Perhaps I'm naive, but I genuinely believe they want to lead ppl to Jesus and help us live a more fulfilled life now.
I am also sure that if we were on a world stage preaching someone would find fault, perhaps even heresy at times. I know when I was an officer I always tried to preach truth, but it's The Word as I understand it. Yes, I used references and read and backed things up, but I'm sure I got things wrong at times. Does that mean we criticize each other? Does that mean we pull other believers down? Is that helpful to building God's kingdom?
It certainly seems to me, the more successful a ministry, the more less successful ministries pull them down.
I remember at my 5th year review, a senior officer gave an impromptu talk on why TSA was better than Hillsong church. My husband literally had to hold my arm down! That was not helpful to building the kingdom! I believe with my whole heart that Hillsong church is doing a great job at revealing Jesus to the world. They may not be perfect, who is? But I believe their heart is to bring salvation to the world.
It was removed because it was a repeated post.
'I genuinely believe they want to lead ppl to Jesus and help us live a more fulfilled life now'.
If you take away their own greed for money, I might agree with you, but ask yourself - what do they give - actually give - that doesn't require people in droves giving them money in return? That isn't Christianity - it's false witness for sure.
The 'obscenity' of their lifestyle is there for all to see - no-one who is sincere about their calling needs all the worldly trappings they have. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil, and again - if you'd watched the John Piper video - it's only 10 minutes long - it would show you the error of their ways. No-one who robs the poor for the sake of the gospel is worthy of being respected. That's not what it's all about.
You say 'successful' ministry - there's successful and then there's successful. Just because it's global, that doesn't make it successful spiritually. It takes some people a little longer to cotton on to false doctrines, but I do hope you get there in the end.
Please don't patronize me. I'm entitled to my opinion
It wasn't meant to be patronising. I feel so sorry that you are not seeing these people for who and what they are. I believe they are con merchants masquerading as God's people, and I feel for those who have been fleeced by them. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but if we don't question things that are wrong, then we don't progress spiritually. They do not follow Jesus' teachings. Do some research on them -Joyce Meyer would be a good one to start with - then if you still feel the same, then carry on accepting them. But in this short time since this blog appeared, I don't think you'd have had the time. If I'm mistaken, please forgive me.
You are correct in that today I have not researched them. I will say however, that I have been around the church a LONG time. I have listened to their preaching, I have read articles like this before, I do understand there are genuine questions about ministries. I'm not naive to that. Personally, I just don't see how this kind of discussion helps build God's kingdom. All ppl not in the church see is the church fighting. A kingdom divided. A kingdom divided cannot stand!
Look at it this way. When the devil has us all squabling over who is better who is doctrinally wrong we take our eyes off Jesus.
What we need to do is as the children's hymn writer stated ... you in your small corner and I in mine" so long as Jesus is lifted up thats what matters.
So if Joyce Meyer and co are wrong let God be the judge and jury. But ppl are coming to the kingdom through such work ... does TSA have any similar multi media technological breakthrough ... no!
If something works don't try to fix it as its not broken
Agreed!
Paul’s Final Instructions (Romans 16)
And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people.
2 Timothy 3
New Living Translation (NLT)
The Dangers of the Last Days
3 You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. 2 For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. 3 They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. 4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
6 They are the kind who work their way into people’s homes and win the confidence of[a] vulnerable women who are burdened with the guilt of sin and controlled by various desires. 7 (Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth.) 8 These teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith. 9 But they won’t get away with this for long. Someday everyone will recognize what fools they are, just as with Jannes and Jambres.
Paul’s Charge to Timothy
10 But you, Timothy, certainly know what I teach, and how I live, and what my purpose in life is. You know my faith, my patience, my love, and my endurance. 11 You know how much persecution and suffering I have endured. You know all about how I was persecuted in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra—but the Lord rescued me from all of it. 12 Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil people and impostors will flourish. They will deceive others and will themselves be deceived.
14 But you must remain faithful to the things you have been taught. You know they are true, for you know you can trust those who taught you. 15 You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[a]”
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Wen I'm not sure about what I'm reading or hearing or seeing, I consider how would Jesus respond to the situation. What would he have to say about what these people are preaching?
Jesus - Temple - comes to mind. I don't think He would have tolerated them and would have denounced them as evil doers. How else would you treat people who make it up to suit themselves, and who line their pockets to a ridiculous level in the name of God? I am shocked at some of the postings on here - we are told to test things, and see if they are from God. Some people just accept them and say well at least they are bringing people to God. Yes, but it's a false gospel, based on unbiblical principles and expectations.
it's plain wrong.
You know what else is wrong? The church attacking each other! How can this help? Internet sites that declare certain preachers and teachers evil because of whatever reason I find incredibly divisive. The unchurched must think we're a bunch of nit wits!
We once had a fellow in our corps who left because we sang a song written by Joel Houston from Hillsong Sydney. The song was "Tell the World that Jesus Lives!" All this attitude did was cause division amongst our people! He, for whatever reason thought it was unsound and wrong. We obviously disagreed. What I'm saying is, we had 1 goal, show people Jesus. This man thought the way we did this was wrong, it caused quite an upheaval and he left. We could've just agreed to disagree and leave what we didn't like about the way each other did things up to God to deal with.
It may be on a much bigger scale, but I honestly believe this kind of article does nothing to build the kingdom, it only causes confusion and divides. Why can't we just see the good things these ministries are doing and leave the rest we struggle with, with God?
How many stayed though? Think positive! You'll never please everyone, but there really are some nasty people out there masquerading as children of God, and we should question their motives before getting carried away with their message. I've been in TSA for a long time, and I get frustrated with the fact that it hasn't advanced with the times at all, and I love modern music - I don't want to be singing silly 19th century 'army' songs when I can get more spiritual nourishment from more up-to-date music. I love some of Hillside's songs- I listen to them often and gain much blessing from them, but I couldn't go and watch them sing - having seen DVDs of the worship style I know I'd hate it - I don't like the way the church is set up and I know I wouldn't be comfortable with all the emotion they stir up.
But - I take what I consider to be the best, and use it for my spiritual journey.
No-one has the monopoly on truth, but I honestly believe Joyce Meyer is a con artist, duping people into sending money for her 'ministry' - actually - her own sumptuous lifestyle. Haven't really looked at the other guy.
These people you say are causing divisions - they have a right to their opinions, too, and deserve to be listened to - maybe they ARE warning us of some errors in our Christianity. God still has prophets at work in the world today, and His word tells us to question things before accepting them. Someone once said that a Christian never passes a proficiency test - we're always learning. If we are satisfied with the level of spirituality that we have attained , then we need to think again. There are always lessons to be learned - some are more acceptable to us than others. The trick is in finding the right ones.
Christianity’s path is never smooth – we are attacked on all sides, sometimes, as in TSA at the moment, from within. It makes us think, and makes us pray – that can’t be bad.
You say ’Why can't we just see the good things these ministries are doing and leave the rest we struggle with, with God?’
Why not just leave them, period?
What does one do with this scripture and dozens like it in both Old and New Testament?
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." ~ Luke 6:38
God is a God Who rewards and Blesses, even with material things. It's just that people get greedy for material things and forget the greater rewards of eternal Blessings, thereby perverting the above scripture.
So yes, believe that the Lord will help and provide, even abundantly, but keep everything in biblical balance.
"I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want." ~ Philippians 4:12
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