Monday, November 2, 2009

Love the Sinner but Hate the Sin? -Part One-

Friday night, 30th of October, I attended a candlelit vigil at Trafalgar Square, London for the victim of a recent homophobic hate murder. Over 3000 people were in attendance, including television and stage personalities, a number of politicians from the various political parties, and high ranking members of the Police (this in itself was a remarkable feat as the whole thing was organised in just over a week). More than just remembering the victim, Ian Baynham (and all previous murder and other victims of homophobic violence), the vigil was about standing up and being counted, about saying no to any sort of homophobia, about declaring that ALL people have rights, and those rights need to be protected and enforced. To that end, the various politicians from all parties represented, including the Prime Minister Mr Gordon Brown, through his ministers, declared and vowed to introduce legislation that would make homophobic expressions (as well as other prejudiced expressions) illegal and punishable under extended anti-terrorism laws. The Metropolitan Police representative said that such acts of violence start with ignorant comments, a sermon preached which perpetuates falsehoods about other people and their lifestyles, etc. Words progress to attitudes in the workplace and in society. Attitudes progress to discrimination. Discrimination progresses to violence. Violence progresses to murder. It all starts with words.

Throughout the vigil, the observation was made that everyone was there out of an outflowing of love. The message kept being repeated that love will overcome, love will bring an end to such events. The love that was shown at the vigil was contrasted to the hate that is manifested in the church generally, which is seen to incite such actions.

Conservatives within the church constantly retort to such allegations that they are ruled by hate, by saying that they ‘love the sinner but hate the sin’. There are a number of problems and faulty assumptions with this statement – particularly in relation to the current subject of homosexuality.

First, it assumes that homosexuality can be divorced from the actual person, and that it is a choice that can be made and un-made as it were. However, The Salvation Army’s positional statement on the subject says that The Salvation Army ‘....does not regard a homosexual disposition as blameworthy in itself or rectifiable at will.’ There is a great difference between these two statements. One divorces the act from the person, the other says that a person’s orientation is what they are, and this cannot be changed. This poses great difficulties for those who would say ‘love the sinner, but hate the sin’. As we see in the Sermon on the Mount, Christ made no such distinction. “21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.” (Mat. 5:21-22). Throughout the Sermon on the Mount, Christ makes this analogy over and over and over again. Thoughts and words are just as damnable as the action itself. The very thought is enough to be judged as having done it. In other words, to suggest that a person is homosexual because that is their identity/inclination etc., is the same as living and practicing the lifestyle – regardless of whether they remain celibate or not. This poses a problem. Either homosexuals are all damned to hell for simply existing (very unbiblical, and Calvinistic to the extreme), or the teaching on homosexuality is wrong.

One can divorce the sin of adultery from the person, because adultery is a choice – it is not who or what you are. One can divorce the sin of stealing from the person, because theft is a choice – it is not who or what you are. One cannot divorce homosexuality from the person – because it is NOT a choice (even by The Salvation Army’s admission in its Positional Statement). IT IS who the person IS. To say that one can love the homosexual and hate the action goes way beyond what Christ taught. They are one and the same thing – at least according to Christ. By going so far, we are putting ourselves above Christ. This brings into question our very salvation. For if we are above Christ, then what is the purpose of his death and resurrection? This is idolatry in the extreme.

The problem lies in the ignorance of what homosexuality is, and in misunderstood/ mistranslated biblical passages. Sexuality is not a choice. Let me ask all heterosexuals reading this: When did you ‘choose’ to become heterosexual? I suspect the answer is ‘I always was, it was never a question’. The same is the case for homosexuals. There is no choice. The choice is to be honest and admit it – not hide it. This is the true meaning of the passage in Romans 1 ‘25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie’ (Romans 1:25). When one denies the nature that God created, when one tries to live a life that is a lie – hiding who they are, that is when they come under the punishment of God. The only choice that homosexuals make is to be honest with themselves and their God and those around them. Forcing people to live a life that is a lie is forcing people to hell. It is just as much a sin for a homosexual person to live a heterosexual life (or even deny their homosexuality), as it is for a heterosexual to live a homosexual life. When we re-translate the traditional passages that are used to condemn homosexuality in the light of cultural understanding at the time, and better understandings of the language, we find there is not a single passage in the entire Bible that even mentions homosexuality in relation to sin, let alone condemns it. The condemnation comes from the church and the church alone. There is no divine authority for it. Homosexuality is not a sin – at least not one as defined by the Bible or God.

-Part One-

Graeme Randall
Former
Australia

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Homophobia is the moral judgement that homosexual behavior is wrong. To suggest, as many homosexuals do, that their cause mirrors the global fight for justice and human rights is absurd. "Homophobia is not like ethnic, racial or religious prejudice, which deny the intrinsic moral rights and value of other people. Rather, it is a moral judgement upon acts engaged in by choice." Katz

I agree Graeme, this issue ought to be given immediate attention rather than the sporadic 'positional statements' most often thrown in when bundled statements are shipped out enmasse to officers only. We still have much to learn on this sensitive and important subject.

Thank you Graeme for your well written position.

Former
USA East

Anonymous said...

I read your article with tears in my eyes.
11 yrs ago I was 'encouraged' to resign my officership of 20yrs,for being gay, and entering a relationship.

The journey of the past 11yrs has been traumatic,yet liberating. ALthough no longer in a relationship, I am so amazed by GOd's loving faithfulness.

Thank you for your boldness to keep our situation in the Army 'thinking space'...for all those who have been so hurt, by lack of a willingness to understand and do the 'right thing'. God Bless you.

Anonymous said...

as a p.s. to my above comment.

Homosexuality is not a choice... it is God given.
Who would 'choose' to live a life which is deemed unacceptable, and be ostricised by the church they love.?

Former UKT

Anonymous said...

Blog administrator, please accept this retired officer's gratitude for allowing hurting people to share their thoughts on this sensitive issue. One can only pray that the army opens their collective heart in the same sense your fellowship has.

Our son was raised in the army but left when he realized there was no place for people like him. Two of his officer friends died of AIDS some 15 years ago. The deaths were spoken of in hushed tones when they should INSTEAD have raised red flags and been seen as a reality that needed to be addressed.

Maybe this fellowship group, that apparently grows from strength to strength, will teach the necessary tolerance and understanding so lacking in the average USA corps, institution and HQ.

Retired Officer
USA

Anonymous said...

Graeme

I read your post over a number of times and can feel and understand where you are coming from.
However, I cannot say that I agree with all that you say.

Firstly, I am in total agreement with you about violence against homosexuals and others.That is not acceptable. Just because we view an act as sin does not mean that we should attck physically those who commit that act.

Secondly, I am in total disagreement with you on the pratice of homosexual behaviour, that is, sexual actiivity. I am one of those who believes that such activity is a persoanl choice when a person gives in to temptation.
Temptation is not a sin. I believe that we all have areas where Satan knows that we are vulnerable. Wether that is for overuse of alcohol or taking drugs or stealing or intercourse outside of marriage or a host of other sins we can each be tempted. Giving in to that temptation is sin.

Now, I know that many people claim that homosexuality is not a choice but something we are born with. Personally I think that is wrong.

The particpation in any sin is a personal choice and this is where we (you and I) have our basic disagreement.

I am not going to get into the Biblical arguments used by either side here because I do not think it will change either your or my stance here.

I also disagree with our Positional Stance here as I do with other of TSA's Positional stances. In some areas I think we have become too politically correct.

Graeme, I would tell you that if we were in the same city you and I could be friends while disagreeing here. Prior to retiring from government service I knew a number of work mates who were homosexually active. We worked together, we talked together and were friends. They could come to me for help with something or I could do the same for them. We socialized.
They understood where I stood on this issue but also understood that I did not discriminate against them or ignore them or ,even worse, berate them about it.

And ,in closing Graeme, I think that the proposed legislation you speak about in Great Britian about classing homophobia as a terroristic act goes too far. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, is more important to our society than that.

John Stephenson
Canada and Bermuda

FloridaFlamingo said...

One of my session mates died in 1993. Though it was never spoken of I am quite certain he was gay and, most likely, died of AIDS or complications since this was the time frame. It saddens me greatly that we tend to be cavalier about peoples lives and deaths when they don't fit a prescribed mold. This dialog must continue. We need to work to lift the veil of misinterpretation and false teachings.

Anonymous said...

Having read the article presented on the former SA Officer blog on the homosexual support gathering in England, I am forced to respond. I find serious questions on the content.

First and foremost, the argument that "homosexuals are born this way, therefor it MUST be "ok" with God" simply does not hold water. We were born into a sinful existence, with a propensity to sin. Are we to embrace whatever desires, or inclinations we have simply because "God made me this way!"????? This opens the door for some very dangerous thinking. Jesus speaks to living to God's standards, not man's. This would be a lengthy reply indeed if I were to quote and comment on all the Bible passages that speak to putting away the things of man, and grasping the things of God.

Second, the author dismisses several very specific Bible verses that DO interact with homosexuality. It is a smoke screen used, and rather effectively might I add, to say that we have to read all the homosexual verses in a context of that day, 1st century Palestine, and not ours. A student of history will find that homosexuality has not enjoyed full acceptance in general society ever. The terms translated in several places are encompassing and addressing several sorts of behavior, but homosexuality would be included in each one.

Third, no, Jesus never said "homosexuality is evil", nor did he ever comment on incest, beastality, pedophilia or a host of other obvious issues that would have been considered to be understood. Jesus DID comment on marriage is to be between one man and one woman, for life. And yes, adultery was covered, even to the extend of lust of the eye. One must ask, are we humans made to be visual creatures with attractions a natural part of life? Yes, Jesus said to lust with the eye was as bad as the action! "Natural" tendicies does not translate to permission.

Lastly, and thank you for the time to follow along here, I must comment on the 'hate the sin, love the sinner". When did "love the sinner" become acceptance, support and love of their actions? I have a daughter that has an addictive personality. She has struggled with meth-cocaine for years. Yes, I hate meth, YES I love my daughter, and NO I do not support her decisions to follow her "natural" propensities to addiction.

I believe that we, as children of God, MUST begin to see the Bible as a whole, not 32,102 verses. The message of the Bible is pretty clear, it's LOVE of God, LOVE of others, and LOVE of self all with balance, clarity, and with a Godly intent. Yes, I love the homosexual, the adulterer, the addict, the gossip, the hypocrite, and yes, I love ME as a sinner. And I hate each and every sin that draws us away from God!

Let's focus on Love. And this includes telling the truth in love.

Ray Neuman
Former
USA Central

Anonymous said...

Grateful for the respectful dialogue on a difficult subject. Not sure that there's yet any scientific evidence of nature/genetic origins, and while some seemingly make peace with their orientation, others carry a heavy burden that doesn't disappear when they come to faith. I hold a great sorrow in my heart tonight for those impacted in so many ways.
JoAnn
USA East active

FORMER SALVATION ARMY OFFICERS FELLOWSHIP said...

TSA Positional Statement
(updated Jan. 1992)
IHQ
London, England

http://www1.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/www_uki.nsf/vw-sublinks/C88AD89964B606C180256F9A003E4F8B?openDocument

All mainline denominations have or are re-visiting this issue in order to bring their policies in line with societal and denominational demands and expectations. Ought we not do the same ?

Please share any and all recent positional statements from your Territory.

All Soul's Church said...

Homosexual people are in every way as valuable to and valued by God as heterosexual people, and should find the church to be a community of love. Now that doesn’t mean that the church should give its approval to a homosexual lifestyle...’

Let me be quite specific. I regard homosexuality is a given, not a chosen; as a minority but perfectly normal position on the human sexual scale, not as an abnormality; and as an enriching part of the human experience.

The phrase “double listening” has always been significant for me. And it means that we’re called to listen both to the Word of God, and to today’s world, in order to relate the one to the other.

Rev. Dr. John Stott
Langham Place
London

Anonymous said...

If we listen to the Word of God, we can not but come away with its view of the act of homosexuality as a sin, and a command to love the sinner. As we all are. Eph tells us clearly, put aside the worlds way of thinking, and be made new in attitudes and intents.

"Double listening" sounds like the man in James.

Ray Neuman
rneuman@new.rr.com
ex- officer
USA Central

Anonymous said...

Hi all,

Thankyou for all your comments. I'm surprised how many have appeared so quickly - and how many are supportive. My intention with this article was simply to reintroduce the discussion. I'm working on another article (or series) which will very briefly state my position using science, theology, psychology, personal testimony, etc. I could prove very interesting. I hope and pray the discussion continues.

Yours in Christ,
Graeme Randall

Anonymous said...

Well. Are we not at the end of an era? Good is evil and evil is good? Did not the prophets and New Testament leaders warn of what is happening here? Pick and choose, pick and choose what you want in the Bible ? We will all face the Judge one day. If any of us causes others to sin we have so much to be accountable for. We should be aware of the trap and snare that satan has before all of us. People ,think! What would Jesus do? Would Jesus be a homosexual? To say that homosexuality is not a sin, is a sin, because it is disagreeing with the Bible. Iam no better, no worse then anyone that sins. Sin is sin. A half truth or murder are both sin. However, lie to a court room judge and you are in contempt and pay a fine. Kill a court room judge and you spend your life in prison or you lose your life. Sin is sin, but each has it's own punishment given by the Judge of all. I would rather die then promote anything listed as sin in the Bible. I Corinthians 6 9-10 lists some specific acts of sin that are called "wicked" by the Apostle Paul. "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God". Vs 11- " And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified,you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" Paul speaks of various sin that was practiced before conversion. Continual practice of these things leads to spiritual death and the denial of the kingdom of God. The Bible did not change ! People did and society's standards have changed. That does not make it right or correct according to God's Word.

To those that are engulfed in sin and in need of our love and care and The Bible, we need to be patient. We should not bash in any way but try to see what we can agree on and move on from there. Some areas we may agree to disagree but we do not have to support or promote the sin regardless of what sin it may be.

This is a touchy subject. Homosexual and lesbian lifestyle was not accepted several years ago like it is today. In fact we can see many changes in society now as compared to many years ago, can't we ? In many ways that is not a comforting statement. I do believe that Christ is the answer to all of our needs. We need spiritual help from Him and people often turn to various addictions , compulsions and dependencies. These things will drag us down but we can have victory in Christ. Satan and his demons are having a grand old time. I believe that some of the sin that has a hold on people is of a more demonic nature then others. I think in many cases , sexual sin falls into this category including homosexual and lesbian lifestyles. I think adutery and child molestation is often demonic also. I am not saying every case but perhaps quite often.

Was Paul not speaking under the influence of the Spirit of God when he wrote I Corinthians chapter 6? Evidently some believe that Paul was not or that we have not interpreted the verses properly. My opinion is that it is the Word of God. If we throw out those verses, may as well pick some others to throw away also. How about throw away "Love one another as I have loved you" Then we could show hate and bash everyone that does not agree with our agenda. Then we could have elected officials help us make everone that disagrees with us to be outlaws and throw them in prison.

We have much to think about even if some of us disagree.

USA East former

Anonymous said...

Graeme,

I would simply say that I disagree with about 90% of what you have written. You have caused a stir here for some and a welcome by others. Needless to say I respect your opinion , but I do not see any Biblical support for your much of what you write. I do agree that people with different values and lifestyles deserve to be treated with respect to their opinions and human rights. I have often assisted people of all types of back grounds wiyh basic human need.

Former USA Eastern Territory

Anonymous said...

'Twas not all that long ago we thought the same way about women, African Americans, divorce. Maybe, just maybe, it really is time to advance the issue.

Anonymous said...

What do you mean advance the issue. Should we advance adultery? The Bible warns against that also. Many people would be in favor of that also. What about many marriage partners. How about mix and match.

There will be no end to the evil desires of the human heart. It is evil and cannot be under control without the "Control" of the Holy Spirit.

Former Officer USA East

Anonymous said...

Should we revert our stances on women, African Americans, divorce? Does many marriage partners mean divorce/remarry/divorce/remarry? Or do you mean polygamy?