When
I then delve down into the depths of the Bible, I understand that I do not have
much ground under my feet to speak soundly either for or against GLBT (issues).
The only thing that I can deduce with all possible clarity is that I am called
to love all people regardless of gender, sexuality, nationality, social status
and political opinion. Yes, I am even to love my enemies and pray that God will
bless them.
How then
shall I be able to move forward to, in a sensible and dignified manner, continue
to discuss these issues? Can I do other than to tolerate (simply allow) GLBT persons to
be who they are and to actually love them? How can I learn more (in order) to
live near to and in Christian fellowship with these my fellow human beings and
siblings - joined by faith?
RFSL
& EKHO
For
my part, I am now a card-carrying member of RFSL and have been part of the
startup team of EKHO, the Province of Scania. EKHO is a special interest organization that works to
create a safe place where LGBT people can have freedom and encouragement in
their Christian faith.
Here in Malmö EKHO will host an open cafe
for conversation and fellowship once a month with the first meeting taking
place on January 26 Please contact us if you want to join with us.
Ekho works therefore to:
·
Provide a living and
liberating community for GLBT persons
·
an environment that
provides care and social security
·
liberation and justice
for GLBT persons in Christian churches and denominations
·
to actively carry out
and in collaboration with others, further awareness of gay, lesbian, bisexual
and trans support available through members' active work in their own church
·
ensure that every
individual be able to feel the strength of being a whole person, created in
God's image
·
that every individual
must be able to accept, respect and rejoice in their ability to fall in love
with someone of the same sex and feel that it is a gift from God, reflecting
God's love
·
to respond to
ignorance and fear of GLBT issues with the insight of GLBT persons.
Addendums
(RFSL—The Swedish Federation for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and
Transgender Rights) is a non-profit organization that works with and for the
rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people (LGBT). It is
non-partisan and not affiliated with any religious organization.
RFSL was founded in 1950 and is one of
the world’s oldest LGBT organizations. It currently has approximately
4,000 members.)
(The
Swedish Ecumenical Group for LGBT Christians
‘We believe that LGBT and Christianity are fully compatible; you can be
Christian and have a same-sex relationship.
Click
here for more information
Worship and Events
We organise discussions and social events once a month)
Here
is an excerpt from the Ekho folder:
EKHO
has since the early 80's been a driving force to make Sweden an open country
where Christian GLBT persons can live and work in their churches and
communities.
Ekho
seeks to move forward socially by providing enlightening work through various
hosted programs, services, information activities, camps, youth work, telephone
and personal counseling.
________________
FROM
THE UK SITE
Anti-discrimination
Discrimination
on the basis on sexual orientation and gender identity is prohibited in the
areas of employment, and provision of goods and services.
In Gibraltar
discrimination on the basis on sexual orientation is prohibited only in
employment.
Legal gender recognition of trans people
The
United Kingdom has administrative procedures to obtain legal gender recognition
compulsory genital surgery, however with compulsory divorce.
Partnership recognition
In
the United Kingdom (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) same-sex
couples are able to enter into a registered partnership. It also provides
registered cohabiting same-sex couples with a set of limited rights.
The UK
civil partnership law does not apply to Gibraltar and Guernsey.
Parenting rights
Same-sex
couples are eligible to jointly apply for a child adoption and each other’s
biological children.
Medically assisted insemination is available to lesbian
couples.
The UK legislation on these issues does not apply to Gibratar,
Guernsey, Isle of Man and Jersey.
Criminal law on hate speech/ crime
Sexual
orientation and gender identity (only in Scotland) are included in the law on
hate and violence, and are recognised as aggravating factor. The UK legislation
on law on hate and violence does not apply to Gibraltar, Guernsey, Isle of Man
and Jersey.
Freedom
of assembly/Pride events
Pride
events have taken place with authorisation.
Criminal law on age of consent
The
age of consent is equal for all sexual acts.
Asylum
9 comments:
I have some objections to Mackan’s, and even Patrik’s logic in arguing. The argument builds on the fact that only academically trained theologians can truly fathom what the Bible really says. This disqualifies all those simple villagers who dwell in cottages faithfully reading the Bible and believing they are receiving the word of God.
I believe that the starting point for biblical interpretation is accepting that the Bible ‘speaks’ to be understood. I think we go amiss if we believe the Bible to mean something other than what it claims. When the Bible says it is wrong to practice homosexuality can one interpret that to mean that the Bible did not say that homosexual acts are wrong, but something completely different?
I completely agree that one must interpret the Bible, and that the Bible in certain instances does not mean what it says literally. This applies primarily to the poetic and apocalyptic literature. But when it comes to the 'instruction letters', I have a difficult time believing that it would mean something different from that which it claims.
I find it difficult to garner respect for a biblical interpretation that tries to prove that, that which is politically correct today is what the Bible implied throughout the ages and that no one has previously understood it.
I would have found it easier to respect this type of interpretation a decade or so ago when most people shared the perception that homosexual acts are wrong.
There is available to us excellent Swedish theological literature that comes to very different conclusions than those Mackan and Patrik propose. Chrys Caragounis, professor of New Testament exegesis, wrote a book called Homo Erotic a few years ago. Since then he has been persecuted, threatened and ‘registered’ due to his biblical interpretation. It's never popular to hold to a different view from that which is politically correct.
I can of course be completely wrong, but when I read what Mackan and Patrik write on this subject, I get the impression that what they write on this subject is based on a theory they think ought to be the correct one and consequently adapt the Bible’s message accordingly.
Peter Baronowsky
SA Regional Commander
Latvia
Thank you Lt Olterman for your very insightful articles. I support inclusivity; membership, however not leadership by LGBTQ persons. We have come far in Sweden but we must learn to walk before we run.
Thank you too to you Sven for your excellent translations - not always easy to catch and share Swedish nuances. but you continue to excel. I remember especially the KALLA FAKTA debates and your contributions.
But most especially I thank God for you, a person with a rich army history and tradition, academic credentials and wide SA experience. I speak for many persons in saying that we are glad that when you stepped out of officers trim you didn't leave the Salvation Army. You continue to lead and to move into fields where SA leaders haven't dared to set foot.
God bless you abundantly.
SA officer
Sweden
I would agree wholly with Peter Baronowsky. As I have stated in the past on the subject of Biblical viewpoints and interpretation,the Bible is very plain on what is sin. Without going into much detail I agree with the Army position and with Scripture that sex outside of marriage is wrong and sex among those of the same sex is wrong and sin. Not just 2,000 years ago but now and 2,000 years from now.
USA Former
Dear Lt. Baronowsky and USA Former,
The issue has nothing to do wirh being PC. It's about doing justice. Sin has little or nothing to do with homosexuality per se anymore than it has to do with heterosexuality---unless possibly promiscuity or using another person like a thing is involved.
Also though I can not make any judgment on either one of you individually I would strongly suggest that you both consider a little bit deeper the possibility that the "sin" might be on the side of people who insist on thinking as you do. Such thinking can at times exhibit a lack of understanding what justice toward the "stranger" in one's midst entails and a penchant toward Bibiliolatry.
Hopefully there's grace to cover even our blind spots or we're ALL in BIG eternal trouble---especially we Protestants with our tendencies to commit Bibliolatry!
Daryl Lach
USA Central
"You Must Go Home By the Way of the Cross, To Stand with Jesus in the Morning!"
Daryle,
There are many of us that disagree with you and call sin , sin.That is the justice. You want things to go your way not what the Bible states,because this is a new age and different culture.I would agree with you that many times promiscuity is engaged and abuse of others is taking place. Uh, is justice toward the stranger agreeing with what they are doing (sex outside of marriage, men having sex with men , women having sex with women, regardless of their affection toward one another)?When it comes to any sexual relationship (outside of marriage)the point of justice is warning people of the judgement to come) if they refuse to repent.I do not see how you can defend such a situation. Unless. Unless you do not believe the Bible. Then we really have nothing to discuss. That would just make it a big difference of opinion and all that Bibliolatry garbage again.
You seem to portray that If I and someone else disagrees with you that we are the big sinners and others that would be involved in sexual sin(sex outside of marriage) are doing good. Have we not heard that in the last days that evil will be considered good and good will be considered evil? Note that in this response I am not using the term homosexual or dwelling in the Old Testament . I will quote from the New Testament. Here it is. Here is a teaching from the Apostle that Christ taught in the Arabian desert stating a fact. "The bed is not defiled in marriage."
USA Former
Dear USA Former,
I agree with you and the passage you quote from the epistle of Hebrews. Within a Xian worldview marriage is the best way to keep one's bed from being defiled when it comes to sexual activities and as the verse goes on to say whoremongers and adulterers will be judged. That's one of the reasons why I believe that it is imperative that gays be allowed to get married.
I also still contend that the real "sin" that so many in the church keep missing is the cruelty of homophobia. C.S. Lewis in Kathryn Lindskoog's anthology of his work entitled "C.S. Lewis: Mere Christian" which she wrote back in the 1970s (and which has since had several reprints) quoted him as saying much the same thing in of all times the 1950s! So I'm pretty sure that puts me in good Xian company and that the passage from Timothy (that has been used in the past on those who disagree with traditionalists)about people in the last days falling away from the faith doesn't apply to either one of us. (especially since "The Late Great Planet Earth" "666" and the "Left Behind" series are a complete anathema to me anyway.)
Oh and btw, if anyone cares to check it out the statements by Lewis are all in the earlier editions of the book printed under Abingdon Press. A later edition by Zondervan (a more evangelical publisher) seems to have edited out (there's that word edit again) almost all of what Ms. Lindskoog reported that Lewis said on the subject. (I wonder why?)
Daryl Lach
USA Central
As a Christian I do have the world view as one and I look at the world from a view with the Bible in mind. Really ,as a Christian I have no choice. As I shared about three or four times in the past in other article responses, (what we are dealing with between you and I and some others) is a different view from Scripture and different interpretation ( even without verses "misinterpreted or translated" concerning the word homosexual. I must remind myself that you are using other info from(science-biology-anthropology-whatever)and I am not for the most part.I am not against these areas that we have gleaned from , but on the current theme I let Scripture trump . As far as the marriage comment I disagree with men marrying men and women marrying women. My understanding of Scripture is that the family as God desired and planned (through our first parents) is male and female.I know you are aware of the biological reasons.There is no provision from the Bible for marriage of same sex anymore than there is for marrying an animal(I am not attempting to be funny or a wise guy.
From a standpoint of people making choices and freedom (we do not live in a theocracy), whatever choices that people make that are contrary to God's law , they must be accountable to their Creator.That goes for all of us for various circumstances.
On the part of how we treat the stranger,(or those that are different in various ways) I as much as any person (working in case-management)treat everyone with dignity and communicate in a friendly manner. I am patient with the people seeking assistance that are drunk , black,Hispanic, Russian , white , gay , lesbian, Korean. I serve without question. I do not call people names. I do not even like to use the word homosexual in describing people. I have a rapport with clients. One man who is an atheist often jokes with me about my beliefs and I jab him back about his atheism but we are friends and show one another respect.I may disagree wholly with a person but can respect their opinion.
Inclusiveness does have it's limits. Restricting the conversation to the Christian life,various churches and the Army have similar requirements for membership. Smoking, alcohol use , living as husband and wife (but not married)plus some other restrictions are some areas that will exclude people. I am focusing on membership , not attendance in this case. I would assume that if gays and lesbians were allowed to be officers or pastors-leaders that exceptions would be needed for people living together (in a sexual relationship)also. I would assume next would be.... the list can go on and on. I am not a legalist nor would I treat people in a mean manner that were different or strange or mentally ill that attended a church that I would pastor.
USA Former
Daryl,
The movies that you listed are pretty goofy. In some ways they are an embarrassment to us all. I tend to lean toward the pre-millenial view and in this case the literal 1,000 year reign of Christ (not just based on revelation)on earth. I believe in a new heaven and new earth one day (even if this earth is restored)to become new. Hebrews shares that "In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son". If 2,000 years ago was the beginning of the last days, we are that much closer to the latter part of the last days (without quoting dates) but seeing the season. The Scripture does speak of a (falling away) in a few areas but I do not dwell on it. The emphasis that Jesus shared for us all was that we should be ready when the Master returns. Some of us will return to Him through death unto eternal life.
USA Former
karina (unregistered) wrote:
Thank you for your posts about this issue. I think they are great and for me it was like taking a fresh breath of air. I think this is a issue which many people think about, but not all people are ready to speak about. Too many people are stuck with their literal translation of the Bible and what is says about homosexuality. I have been thinking about it for some time now.
There was something in me that was thinking why do we speak about homosexuality as being the worst thing ever, but do not speak so much about lies. Is it really ok for Christian to lie, but you can't be a Christian if you' re gay? I have been very conservative and maybe too judgmental to people who are different than me, by judging people according to my standards and my thinking. But then is it really worth to spend energy on condemning where I could spend energy on helping people to find God and embrace His love. God has called us to love and show grace to all people.
I don't know anyone who is gay, lesbian, etc but my prayer to God is that when I meet one of them I would really embrace them with grace, not with judgment, that I would show them the love of God and help them to grow closer to God.
Once again, Thank you Patrik for saying your opinion on this.
God bless,
Karina
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