I have been reading the private FACEBOOK posts with great interest since joining this fellowship. I resigned around 14 years ago and time has been a great insulator from the pain of losing my way. I have been blessed by being fully restored as a soldier and LO after a few years. I have managed to find gainful employment and am satisfied with life in general. I do wish however, that I had had the caring ministry of a fellowship like this one at the time of my greatest need. May God bless the ministry, healing and fellowship found in this group.

Friday, July 1, 2011

CONSENTING ADULTS Conclusion

If you’ve followed the FSAOF blog site for a year or more you will have noticed a somewhat strange occurrence. Our several articles on GLBT issues have brought about a noticeable change in the attitudes of many and a seismic shift in some. As with so many moral and ethical issues there are time-oriented parameters, some initiated and guided by focus groups, and, in my view relating to the homosexual and same sex relationships, we are witnessing God’s divine timing. God, the Holy Spirit, tired of all the SA ‘churchie’ banality (same old same old) has decided it’s time for a ‘in your face’ confrontation! And so discussion groups, such as ours, were created.

The Salvation Army can no longer ignore God’s insistent plea that we find steps in helping gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and trans-gender persons to return and recommit themselves to full soldiership status and active service in our church. And the first step in helping them and us is to listen. We need their forgiveness for our ignorance and insensitivity to their spiritual needs. In ignoring them we have injured them.

Several of our blog visitors have contacted me privately and most ask, where should the Salvationist stand on these issues? The simplest answer is to say, “we report, you decide”! However, to help the decision along I’ll share in this last part in this series what I deem is enough information to make an informed, and intelligent decision, one that is both Biblically and spiritually grounded. It’s a plea for hard thinking as against our too often typical sentimentality. It will require a lively faith, one both rigorous and devout.

If questioned I believe most Salvationists have little idea of the nuances of the issue. However, most old timers would deem homosexual behavior as deviant and sinful. Same sex committed relationships are not typically corps ‘lunch clubs, men’s fellowship or Home League discussion topics.

The Salvation Army’s Positional Statement on homosexuality on the subject echoes “Strong Doctrine, Strong Mercy” (Clifton 1985:71-78). Lacking then and now is a satisfactory interpretation on how TSA relate to the laws of a pluralistic society and the changes in the positions taken by our older brother churches.

The Army’s present positional statement is unsatisfactory and in need of rethinking and overhaul. And in so doing I urge each person to seek God’s wisdom, He who is the creator of all beings and the center for all Logos (truth and logic). Let Him move to bring us peace, healing and reconciliation. In all matters where consensus on theological issues remain unsettled we must ultimately rely on God.

We need to do further work in:
• Biblical interpretation of the very few verses where homosexual acts are clearly forbidden
• Clarifying whether we believe our sexual orientation is a matter of choice or determined.
• Seeking agreement on what constitutes Christian loving relationships
• Initiating the need for Salvationists to carry out a deeper level of analysis and theologising over the issue of homosexuality
• Accept that as we strive for an agreeable consensual stance that we may need to accept ambiguity and respectful moderation as we seek to live together as spiritual equals without having all the answers
______________________________

So, how far have come? Some recent research provides substantive information from which we can move forward. A review of what we know…

What makes people gay? Until 1974 the American Psychiatric Association listed it as a mental disorder. “To gays themselves, homosexuality is neither a choice nor a disease but an identity, deeply felt for as far back as their memory can reach. To them, it is not just behavior, not merely what they do in lovemaking, but who they are as people, pervading every moment of their perception, every aspect of their character.” http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978923,00.html

Genetic evidence has come forward that will undoubtedly affect many private relationships; parents whose offspring do turn out to be gay, siblings of gay persons, school and work mates, organizations, societies and Christian fellowships.

We’ve also moved past discussing what percentage (3-4%) constitutes the gay and lesbian population to concerns like gay marriage, gay adoption, and other gay rights conflicts. Regrettably these controversies have been the cause of numerous assumptions about the lives of the homosexual population. The cause of the misconception finds blame in both camps- not enough education on the subject and interaction with the GLBT community, and too many outrageous demands by some on the GBLT side making their entire community appear strange and unattractive.

We’ve also explored spiritual responses on the issue assisted by outside religious and non-religious groups. One such helpful survey was conducted by the Barna Group two years ago. They explored the spiritual life of gay and lesbian individuals and is helpful in reversing the portrayal of gay adults as “godless, hedonistic, Christian bashers are not working with the facts, etc”. The survey shared “A substantial majority of gays cite their faith as a central facet of their life, consider themselves to be Christian, and claim to have some type of meaningful personal commitment to Jesus Christ active in their life today.”

There were, however, substantial differences in some core religious beliefs. “Heterosexuals were twice as likely as homosexuals to strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches; two-thirds of heterosexuals believe the single, most important purpose in life is to love God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul, significantly higher than the half of all homosexuals who embrace the idea; and about half of straight adults and one-third of gay adults contend that their life has been greatly transformed by their faith.

Religious behavior differs significantly. In any given week the research discovered that heterosexuals are the more likely of the two groups to attend a church service, attend a Sunday school class, pray to God, or read the Bible. Gay adults are 50% more likely than straight adults to be unchurched (42% versus 28%).

The data indicate that millions of gay people are interested in faith but not in the local church and do not appear to be focused on the traditional tools and traditions that represent the comfort zone of most churched Christians.

Should we Salvationists or Christians in general be at all surprised?

A review of scripture

While some argue that it’s time to simply say that homosexuality is not something to justify and explain, but something that should be accepted, many struggle with yielding to such simple acquiescence. Others still rest their argument in what I deem non-relevant Old and New Testament texts.

Many Christians don't know that:
• Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
• The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
• Only seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual-orientation as it's understood today.
• Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found.
• They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek.
• They haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written.

Elton Trueblood in his, The New Man For Our Time shares: “…since at the same time (man) he is deeply concerned about modern life he must seek to know God’s will for today – no thoughtful person can have a merely inherited faith… When we examine the situation carefully, we realize that many of our uncritically classifications do nothing but harm… “

To continue to argue that the Clobber Passages, the "big eight", or the New Testament verses given to us by Paul, negate God’s approval of same sex committed unions lacks merit. I contend that for the present we be tolerant without being approving and seek a deeper theology following Anselm’s definition; fides quaerens intellectum – faith seeking understanding. This surely must be more helpful than continuing to appropriate ancient dictates to todays 21st century understanding.

We must continue to seek God’s wisdom and to live as biblically-informed Christians in today’s world as we seek to rebuild bridges. We ought to pray in earnest in this regard, not seeking our own misguided understanding, but in a participatory manner asking the Holy Spirit to collapse God’s intent in a single act of faith bolstered by our intelligence. The purpose is that the revealed truth not be self-initiated nor self sustained. This requires an audacious faith trusting that an answer exists and will be revealed.

Romans 1

Paul’s message to the Romans had a strategy based on experience gained in witnessing the problem of the ancient pagan religions and Graeco-Roman society in general. Paul had never been to Rome and consequently outlines his gospel so that his teaching would not be confused by that of false teachers (Paul was a well-trained Rabbi and preacher) and would include admonitions relative to what he perceived to be immoral actions practiced in Rome. It was perfectly natural that Paul would include moral issues and focus in part on philosophical speculations pertaining to pagan temple-worship. It is foolish to suggest that Paul focused on, or targeted loving homosexual relationships in the sense that they exist in the modern age. And, equally foolish is to argue from silence that he would have supported such unions.

Paul didn't write Romans 1 as a condemnation of homosexuality, but as a criticism of Greek behavior in temple worship, the only forms of same-sex activity that Paul and his contemporaries were familiar with. Paul wrote in advance of his visit to warn former Pagans who converted to Pauline Christianity to not leave the faith, return to Paganism, and engage in idolatry. The intent of the passage is to show how idolatry leads to complete degeneration of their behavior.

People sometimes assume that modern, conservative views about sex were present in antiquity to the same degree that they are today. This is particularly challenging when reading the Apostle Paul. In antiquity a married man was not considered to be immoral if he was having sex with his household slaves or even prostitutes. And it is in this world that the Apostle Paul attempted to carve out a place for a more nuanced sexual ethic. And, if we are going to understand Paul and try to apply his sexual ethics to the 21st century, we need to understand the world in which he lived.

Paul’s scriptural references to homosexual acts spoke to those that were culturally-conditioned in the first century. Romans 1 is talking about shrine prostitution in worship of the fertility goddess. Shrine prostitution was practiced in Rome in the first century. Shrine prostitution is certainly how Paul's first century readers understood his words in Romans 1.

The letter was written ca. 55 AD and addressed two distinct mid-1st century audiences; the Jews living in Rome, believing they ought to profess Christ but keep the law (Torah), and the Gentiles, familiar with Greek philosophical thought, describing what Christians witnessed every day in Rome. His letter focused on law abiding Jews and new Christians; a multi-cultural society made up partly of Jews and partly of heathens converted to Christianity. Citing idolatry to differentiate between Gentiles and Jews was a common rhetorical device in the first century. The idolatry and shrine prostitution which surrounded the worship of false gods. When read in historical context and in the context of Paul's life experience, we come to a very different conclusion.

The greatest difficulty in reading, comprehending and applying Paul’s admonition to the Romans in the 1st century to 21st century Western Europe, are numerous but include these obvious and
critical differences.

Paul’s letters were written by:
1. A Hellenistic Jew with a Pharisaic background
2. A graduate of the university at Tarsus to people of various backgrounds and levels of life experience and education.
3. A man whose face to face meeting with Jesus was brief and traumatic (met and communicated with the resurrected and ascended Christ)
4. A student of Gamaliel (Freedmens Temple, Jerusalem) and probably the son of a freed slave
5. A contemporary of Jesus, and of about the same age, called to follow Christ when in his early 30s
6. A man 20 years into developing his own Christology
7. A man whose Christology would develop over a period of another 10 years (and who said nothing during his life about homosexual unions or same sex loving relationships)
8. A man who had been married and had at least one child (his membership in the Sanhedrin required that both conditions be met)

While one would like to have a definitive statement from Jesus, Paul or any other godly authority on same sex unions, two persons in a loving and committed lifetime-relationship, we’re left wondering why no such announcement was ever provided.

In his letter to the Romans Paul identifies the strong in faith as scorning and despising the weak in faith. He equated the weak with Jewish Christians and the strong with Gentile Christians. The weak in faith are the very people claiming to be closest to God, His chosen people, like the ‘elder’ son.

Might it be that we ‘straight and long-time faithful’ soldiers are just like the elder son? Are we missing the joy in seeing sons and daughters return because we haven’t understood why they had to go to a distant land… We’ll accept their repentance but why the celebration, the feast, the ring and the coat of acceptance? Tolerate yes, but full acceptance? Welcome home the one who went away to experiment with life, who sinned, while I, the faithful, obedient son remained at home?! I have every right to be bitter. And yes, I admit that the bitterness clouds my judgment, but that’s just the way it is…

The father’s words to us, the faithful, ‘have all that is the Father’s, reminding us that we have reason for perpetual joy and contentment don’t suffice and provide the necessary measure to balance the announcement of the joyful celebration at the return of the child who got lost.
The day will come when we all stand before the Father and are welcomed home. His valuation will not be gender based nor will it be affected by sexual orientation but by how we loved. We can’t presume that God would be against the repentance of any sinner, or against the return of our prodigal children.

Who among us hasn’t rebelled, kicked up his heels and tried various options of living life. When the prodigal, you and I, comes to his senses he seeks a return to the father. The father sees the son in the far distance and runs to meet him and breathlessly speaks to the servant running with him, My son who was lost has come home- this is cause for a celebration like no other!”

The story of the older brother remains untold and we don’t know if he eventually joined in the celebrations. But we know that Jesus’ words in Luke’s parable have been caught up in a powerful SA chorus reminding us, the Father’s servants, as to Jesus’ teachings, ‘There will be more joy in heaven…’


Dr. Sven Ljungholm
Former Officer
USA, Sweden, Russia, Ukraine, UK

24 COMMENTS:

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, this 'conclusion' (as you call it) still ignores the most basic question/issue at the very heart of the topic. That is, of course, the question of Christians and continuing sinful behaviour, straight or gay!

There has been much written here about sex acts, pornography, 'adultery in the heart' to convict all of us if we're honest - have some of we British, red-blooded men not watched the ladies' tennis this week at Wimbledon and 'admired' the tanned, lithe and very attractive blondes on view even remotely 'lascivioiusly'? (I know I have, despite my better self and my aims and ideals for my life!)

Yet this issue goes much further than even that - there is NO situation at all where the Bible condones ANY sexual acts outside the bounds of marriage (and I mean marriage as initiated and blessed by God in His word and not a half-baked legal 'joining together' such as a Civil Psrtnership.)

If I lust after a woman, picture her in my head while self-gratifying, meet her, date her and sleep with her it is a sin right up to the point where we might eventually wed. As a young man I slept with my future wife before marriage - I believe our failure to reconcile ourselves with this as 'sin' right throughout our marriage impacted the whole relationship to the extent that, eventually, my ex-wife and I lost our love for each other completely.

There is NO situation in which such behaviour can be considered righteous and acceptable within a church. Can this be argued at all? And, if that is so then how can similar acts between same sex Christians be condoned either?

There is no Biblical consent or encouragement of same-sex marriage or even a hint at acceptability for the same - regardless of how convenient it might be to try to manufacture such a thing in a modern day, 'enlightened' and pluralistic society'!

As you say above, advances in 'Scientific thinking' since 1974 have seen the status of homosexuality altered from a mental illness to a genetic inheritance - so what? Since when have Science and Christianity been happy bedfellows (if that is not too trite an expression in this debate)?

The fact is, that to be able to preach or even speak in public what have been long-held, Christian (church) principles is now, effectively illegal. Does not the Bible warn us that this will happen as we get nearer the end times? Does it not imply that being a merely being a Christian will be made almost impossible by the demands and expectations of society (law!) at that time?

I have no problem at all with people with homosexual natures or tendencies or genetic inheritance or whatever one may wish to call it being a fully active and welcome member of my SA corps or any other! But they MUST, by the nature of sin itself be celibate. I know several very active and high-profile Salvationists in this very situation. They may personally feel it a unfair - that cannot be helped in the same way I feel it unfair that I have had to be celibate for almost a decade myself now - and in the same way I expect my children to be celibate until marriage.

I must also add that I also know several other Salvationist men who, both in the way they spoke and acted as well as having their natural tendencies, were 'homosexual' yet, in order to honour God, they married women and lived happy, productive lives. I can think of one current, highly successful officer born from such a union right now as I type.

There is plenty more in this debate, let alone a 'conclusion' - but it still all boils down to the one question - a question of sinful behaviour, hetero or homosexual!

Sven Ljungholm said...

The 'conclusion' refers to the series of 6 articles, as I'm certain regular visitors to our blog will surmise.

The series' intent was to encourage further discussion on inclusiveness. I also sought to challenge people to move beyond the 'same old' thinking and arguments. To that end I'll have to wait and see what transpires.

We welcome articles on this sensitive subject for publication. There have been a score or more of thoughtful responses and I encourage you to expand on them, adding resource; please send them to selmoscow@aol.com .

Anonymous said...

Sven,
Two things: 1. LUV'd the video presentation of your mission trip to Latvia with David Daws playing his cornet in the background. (I've gotta get that CD!)I'm glad I was able to be a small part of the trip with my meager donation.

2. Your Consenting Adults conclusion is an excellent piece of work and I only wish it could somehow be used in a wider context within the Army world. And though I could be wrong I strongly suspect that you may have used some of my friend Mel White's Soulforce materials during your research! (Especially the part on Romans 1!)

Mel was with me in London last month at the RAH for the whole 7 hours of the concert and I was hoping to introduce you to him but since I couldn't initially find you and wasn't sure I was even going to find you during the break and since he was starving to death he just went off to the restaurant. I really wish you could've met!

My only problem with your conclusion Sven was with one sentence that really stood out. (It may have just been an unfortunate choice of words?) You write, "I contend that for the present we be tolerant without being approving and seek a deeper theology...." In a sense the last five words make the rest of the sentence self-correcting but at the same time if a gay person read that they might still see it as Xian double talk and perceive it as actual rejection. Nobody goes to a church where they don't feel affirmed---especially if they don't believe that by being gay they did anything wrong in the first place! Aside from what I think was just a poor choice of words the rest of your assessment is excellent.

Anonymous: After re-reading your thread several times I can't help but get the feeling that you for your own mental health (and please don't take this wrong as if it were a put down because it's not)may need to seek out professional help. Your conflicts over sex seem to go much deeper than just your interpretation of scripture.

On the one hand I think it is admirable that you're attempting to reconcile your interpretation of scripture with your daily life by being celibate for the past 10 years. But I also get the distinct impression that you have also for some reason (and this is REALLY deep and subconscious) not been able to forgive yourself for failing to live up to the demands of your faith pre-maritally with your first wife. When you throw all of this in with your going bananas looking at blondes bouncing around in their skimpy shorts at Wimbledon and your being all worried that some gay (or straight)person might be having some fun somewhere it sounds as if you're standing on a emotional precipice ready to jump off into the looney bin. I mean this is the stuff that leads people into living double lives at best and embarrassing illegal activities at worst. I've seen it happen too many times!Please go talk to someone and get some help! I for one will be praying for you.

Daryl Lach
USA Central

"You Must Go Home By the Way of the Cross, To Stand with Jeus in the Morning!"

Sven Ljungholm said...

Thank you Daryl- nice of you to come out of hiding! lol

Romans 1? Much of it from researching Paul's educatio, Corinth, Tarsus, Ephesus and F. F. Bruce, however. I also had at least a smattering of 10-12 other sources of which your friend's may well have been included.

Blessings

Anonymous said...

Maybe we should keep questioning scripture and start ripping out pages of what seems out of touch with todays thought and society. Let the gays and lesbians do anything that they want as well as heterosexuals. After all who can trust scripture? It is old and written by man.

Eat , drink , and be merry. Now I know why there are atheists!

USA Anonymous

Anonymous said...

Dear USA Anonymous,

You're right. One should never question the Who? What? Where? Why? and How? of scripture as one would automatically do with anything else one would read. It shows a lack of faith in the 66 books of the Bible being a combined magic mantra of some sort.

Btw, don't forget to be sure and close out any bank accounts you might have as soon as possible and give it all to the poor.

Daryl Lach
USA Central

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much for your patronising comments Daryl. As a former educator I was always told that a poor teacher uses sarcasm and patronisation to hide his own insecurity...hmmm...

I'm much more inclined to agree with the opinions of 'Anonymous Usa' - lets tear out all the bits from the Bible that don't fit with the 'modern world'...they make it far too hard to be a Christian today! (We were promised a bed of roses, weren't we...all that 'take up thy cross' stuff is far too severe for the 21st century, surely?) That 'free for all' sounds great fun! Sin? Pah...out of fashion, my friend!

One thing though...isn't there a little bit right at the end of the Bible about adding or taking away a single word.......?

Anonymous said...

Aw shucks Anonymous! It's nothing like patronization or sarcasm in spite of whatever it is you were told as a former educator.

The educator who helped to educate you was probably talking about teachers being patronizing and sarcastic toward their students---which would definitely show insecurity on the part of the educator since a student is already in a subservient position. Seen from that perspective I do agree with you and your mentor(s)and along with you would certainly abhor any such conduct from any teacher who would do such a thing to any of their students.

What's going on here is an open and free discussion between equals many of whom sign themselves as anonymous---which is their right same as I have the right to identify myself. Thus I suspect that what you're doing is getting satire which is comedy(hopefully!)mixed up with sarcasm.

And how about a little more satire while we're at it??!! There really is no need to tear out large swaths (or even tiny bits here and there) from the Bible that make modern day evangelical Xians feel uncomfortable. Its already been done. Just turn on the boob tube and watch Xian television in America anytime day or night. Bless You.

Daryl Lach
USA Central

P.S. Btw, whoever said they didn't believe in sin or the need for repentance and absolution? Not me.

And as always: "You Must Go Home by the Way of the Cross, To Stand with Jesus in the Morning!"

Anonymous said...

I wasn't sarcastic. If the Bible you believe in the YV (Your Version) is what gives you the outline for life and eternal life, then forget it. Atheism looks better. People are looking for something that is real and true and dependable. No wonder some turn to other religions and the cults, Daryl. And that cross sign off does not jive with your theology. It does not make sense.

Anonymous USA

Sven Ljungholm said...

IT APPEARS THAT WE'VE BEEN HACKED AND THE RESPONSES HAVE BEEN 'TAMPERED WITH"... IF YOU POSTED A COMMENT AND LEARN THAT IT'S BEEN DELETED/EDITED. PLEASE SEND IT DIRECTLY TO ME FOR POSTING. THANK YOU

Anonymous said...

(INADVERTENTLY DELETED - REPOSTED)

Sorry for the long absence guys, have moved house, been on holidays, and until recently, have had VERY limited Internet access.

To USA East and Co. I apologise if I have ever come across as having called you names etc. What I have always attempted to do is to help you see things from a different perspective - how others feel and see things. I know you all believe whole heartedly that you are loving and caring to all people - including those in the GLBT community. However, the moment you deny someone their rights as a human being - including their right to love and be loved, to live without fear of being persecuted, bashed, denied employment, or killed - you undo all the kindness you have done. Remember, there were slave owners who treated their slaves kindly, but they were still slave owners.

As far as selective reading of the Bible goes. What Daryl and I have been trying to point out over the last 3 years is that every fundamental Christian does that in spades. I do not know one Christian Fundamentalist who obeys all the laws in the bible - including food, clothing, finance, etc. How much of the bible have you guys ripped out in order to maintain your fundamentalist principles?

As Sven pointed out, when read in context, none of the fundamentalist understandings of the Bible is correct. In other words, what passes as traditional Christian teaching on ANYTHING has almost no relationship to the Bible whatsoever. Approved sexual practice in the bible is VERY different to what Christians understand today. King David (along with all the other 'Godly' kings - and many of the prophets) had many wives (polygamy). All of those same people - accepted as righteous by God (and I include the patriarchs - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) - all had 'concubines' and approved sexual relations with those they were not married to. The Christian teaching on marriage appears nowhere in the Bible. Christ was clearly referred to as 'Rabbi' - a title at the time which could only be given to a teacher/leader who was married and had children. Mary was only 14 at oldest when she bore Christ and then married Joseph - something that most Christians today would find abhorrent. (continued next post) -

Graeme Randall - Former Australian East

Sven Ljungholm said...

From Daryl's earlier comment...

"My only problem with your conclusion Sven was with one sentence that really stood out. (It may have just been an unfortunate choice of words?) You write, "I contend that for the present we be tolerant without being approving and seek a deeper theology...." In a sense the last five words make the rest of the sentence self-correcting but at the same time if a gay person read that they might still see it as Xian double talk and perceive it as actual rejection.

Nobody goes to a church where they don't feel affirmed---especially if they don't believe that by being gay they did anything wrong in the first place! Aside from what I think was just a poor choice of words the rest of your assessment is excellent."

Thank you Daryl, and my choice of words was deliberate. I believe our forum has served as a valuable God directed tool in helping visitors understand and come to terms with a wide and eclectic number of topics, the GLBT issue being the most difficult.

I'm aware that there are visitors to this site, and also many members of our FSAOF who rely on me and others to assist in their interpreting SA policy and regulations. On the issue of accepting gays and lesbians into SA soldiership, I've learned that most COs act independently of SA policy, based on their own interpretation of scripture. My wording was meant to motivate and inspire others to do the same.

As you know, our fellowship has come to be well known by TSA, and in fact, I'm told, even respected and 'listened to'. Consequently, while I believe we have a certain new freedom to push the envelope, I think we need to move cautiously, yet steadily, in helping those not yet as developed in their Christology and Theology as others. Better we assist them through the scripture love (tolerance) portions and lead them gently and in due time to the inclusivity (acceptance) phase - it's that most respected and treasured of the old pedagogical theories; help them discover the truth for themselves.

blessings

Anonymous said...

Sven,

In response to your comment....."the GLBT issue being the most difficult." AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH! God Bless You All---even those whom for whatever reason can't seem to break free of right wing thinking. I can certainly empathise because I was once there myself!

Daryl Lach
USA Central

"You Must Go Home By the Way of the Cross, To Stand with jesus in the Morning!"

Anonymous said...

This site must be hacked or selective. I have tried a few responses but no postings stay for long. My opinions or statements are not bigoted either.

Too bad. Some opinions and sharing are left out for good discussion.

Former USA

Sven Ljungholm said...

PLEASE SEND ALL COMMENTS TO SELMOSCOW@AOL.COM I WILL MAKE CERTAIN THEY ARE POSTED WITHOUT ANY HACKING/EDITING. ADMINISTRATOR

Anonymous said...

Graeme,

The Bible does not remove dirty laundry. Often statements are made by the writers that share info but with little or no comment. Treatment of woman , slaves ,adultery, concubines are mentioned but little comment. That does not make it right or acceptable. Jesus corrected a lot of that thought. The Jewish leaders hated him for it. He took away their religion and control. A New Covenant began.As far as King David is concerned, he eventually repented and sought forgiveness. Solomon was the wisest man ever and he had concubines and many wives. He PAID the price too. Foreign wives brought in idolatry and false religion.Because of these choices the nation of Israel and innocent people paid with their lives.In the NT there is no mention of having several wives or concubines as acceptable practice. The old was not acceptable. Much of the OT is history and a SCHOOLMASTER on how not to live. Yes , we still see much good teaching in the OT but I would not suggest to anyone to live or dwell there.

I find it interesting that marriage is never mentioned as two men or women being joined. Is part of scripture missing ? Are we hearing a new revelation from the Lord on the subject of same sex marriage or relationships? All feeling aside and with no discrimination, I do not see Biblical support for same sex marriage or relationships. Now , I understand that reason and opinion come from somewhere , but again I do not see it from the Bible.So would not your whole outlook be mostly from non-Biblical sources and opinion and feeling and your own choice and experience ? I understand that times have changed and we live in a different culture.
I despise legalism and FUNDAMENTALISTS that threaten gays and lesbians. I also do not want to be threatened for my belief but only to have open communication. Not ALL of people's opinions are from scripture . I know that. So do not call me a literalist. Really, how do we know that there was a Jesus at all and that God loves the sinner ? Evidently you and I believe that God loves us. Could we be wrong and he despises us instead? Where did that thought or belief come from ? Scripture. We both would agree on that but differ on some other texts or even opinions.
I see much danger by placing peoples opinions in a box or giving a tag such as FUNDAMENTALIST.

USA former

Anonymous said...

(continued from my previous post)
To those who ask ‘is there a new revelation?’ I would say that those GLBT Christians whom Sven came in contact with in his earlier years ARE the new revelation. As was revealed to Peter on the roof of Simon the Potter - that which God has declared clean (blessed) let no man call unclean. As was revealed to the early church regarding the Gentiles – If God has blessed these, and shown His approval of them by pouring out His Spirit upon them as He did us, who are we to deny them entry into His church, and His heaven? Are we greater than God?

Someone said in response to my previous post that much of the OT is history and should not be followed literally. I agree. But if that’s the case, then why do so many people continue to trot out OT versus to condemn people – particularly those in the GLBT community? Why are conservative Christians exempt from a literal reading of the OT but the GLBT community is not?

True, the NT does not talk about same-sex marriage. But the NT does not talk about a lot of things. It gives an example of a thing, and leaves the rest for us to work out. An example is the acceptance of Gentiles, and how they should live. In regards to marriage, the Bible gives an example that would apply to the majority, and leaves the rest for us to work out and apply to the minority. If it didn’t do that, the Bible would never finish being written, and as John said at the end of his Gospel – ‘There would not be space enough in the world to contain the books that would be written’. It is of note (as has been said numerous times) that homosexuality as we understand it today is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. So we need to use our reason on it. Our faith is a living faith, and the Bible is a living document. It is continues to grow. Our understanding of it continues to grow. The moment we see it as immutable and unchanging, then we have killed it. Only that which is dead ceases to grow and change.

The argument that GLBT persons are treated the same as non-married heterosexuals is a non-argument. Heterosexuals are allowed to marry under law – Homosexuals are not. Let them marry and see how Godly their lives are. The fact that so many GLBT unions are lasting, loving, and God-honouring despite the opposition to them and the lack of role models, would seem to prove that they are blessed by God. Why would God bless something He did not agree with?

The argument that GLBT persons should either marry or live a celibate life even if they don’t have the gift of celibacy is dangerous at the very least. We can all name people who ‘appear’ to have done this. But a closer look at their lives proves this wrong. Many of them live in constant depression – Why would God force someone into mental illness if they were doing the right thing? Others live very secret lives. I personally know one DC and one member of Cabinet in one territory who are married but regularly frequent gay sex-on-premises sites for gay sex without their wives knowledge. I know of many other leaders of other denominations and Christian organisations who have done the same – some of which have died of AIDS related illnesses instead of getting treatment and living a long, productive life, because they refused to confront the truth – that homosexuality is not something that can be – or should be – overcome. It is to be embraced as a gift from God just like heterosexuality is. No one has ever left homosexuality for good without dire, negative consequences – despite how much they may protest they have. (Continued...) Graeme Randall - Former Australian East

Anonymous said...

Saturday (2/7/11) in London was the Annual Gay pride festival. People were not marching or asking for ‘special privileges’. They are simply demanding the right to be treated as human beings, to be given equal rights as human beings. It is God who judges, it is to God we must all answer. We all have the God-given right of free will – the ability to choose. If we deny people that right by restricting what they can and cannot do, then we are taking that away from them – something not even God was prepared to do. Are we above God that we can do what God is not even prepared to do? I respect everyone’s right to understand the Bible as they believe it should. However, when that belief directly results in others being denied their rights as human beings, denied the right to love and be loved, to live without fear of bashing, persecution, denial of employment, and death, then that belief does not come from the God of love, and must be campaigned against as evil. We are not above God as to do things that God Himself forbids even Himself to do. Christ came to give us life, and have it abundantly. To release us from death – not increase its’ hold on us.

Before a conclusion to this debate can be reached, we must first agree on a definition of sin, and what homosexuality is. We cannot proceed with this debate or conclude it without this being done. We also must look at other evidence that may shatter our faith. We must look at cultural interpretations, language, science (which takes things out of the spiritual and into the physical), we need to look at the spirit of the teaching – why was this taught? All of this must be looked at if we are to ever have a serious, productive discussion on any topic. If we don’t, then no discussion can be considered serious or productive.

I have often been asked on this site ‘how I know that Jesus loves me if not from the Bible?’ True, it is the Bible that tells me this, but a look at just about all cultures throughout history shows us that there is an innate knowledge that God exists, and that that God loves us. None of the themes and stories in the Bible are unique – they are all many thousands of years old before they appear in the Bible. So even without the Bible, we would all know that God loves us – because it is innate within us to know that. That is why Christian GLBT persons continue to worship God despite the persecution from the church – because they innately know it.

The old Army Song says:

My Faith is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ Blood and Righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
On Christ the Solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

Another song says:

We have no other argument,
We have no other plea.
It is enough that Jesus Died,
And that he died for me.

This is what my faith is based on – on Christ alone. No other doctrine, no other teaching. If any other teaching, or science, or culture, or interpretation of language, or anything else challenges my faith, or rocks it, or suggests that what I have believed up to now is a lie, then my faith is not, nor has it ever been, based on Christ and Christ alone.

Yours in Christ,
Graeme Randall
Former Australian East.

Anonymous said...

Addendum to above. We do have the right to make laws forbidding things that are detrimental to society, or to force things that are beneficial to society. None of these take away a person's rights as human beings. A human being does not have the right to kill or hurt or deny another. They do have the right to love, to be loved, to live without fear etc.

Yours in Christ,
Graeme Randall

Anonymous said...

Graeme,

So as it is you no longer are affiliated with the Army. I can see why. They are a pretty fundie group for the most part. I do not see much change in any areas in the future.

As far as God's love. I disagree that people seem to know that he loves them even without the scripture affirming it. I see many more people feeling condemned or in gloom and God is not sending that message.

Thanks for your response.

USA former

Anonymous said...

I gave the new revelation thing some more thought. If you were to believe in new revelation as a continuum then we really have no need for the scripture anymore.It would be outdated and pretty much old stories that people could no longer rely upon regardless of opinion or interpretaton. So, new revelation comes to God's people today. That sounds like some of the off shoots of some Pentecostal teaching that I have heard lately including the gift of Prophecy. Another type of revelation that at times makes people look like fools if the info and prophecy does not come true. Mormons say they have had new revelation by way of Joseph Smith and the angel (Moron) , I mean Moroni. We do not even want to get into that false religion. They may believe in their doctrine with all their heart but because they think that they have NEW revelation? I find a serious danger in adding and taking away from what has been provided.Graeme, I think you are pointing to modern day thought and people living by their conscience. My belief is that does not trump written word. That is one of our major differences. It goes beyond the gay and lesbian lifestyle. If a man felt comfortable having relationships with several women and felt in their spirit that it was not sin, would it not be sin ? Or, because their is warning in the written word that it is sin and leads to a breakdown in our relationship with mankind and God would it be sin ? In today's society is it not a sin for a man and woman to live together and have sexual relations or has the New age and revelation superceded the written word? I really want to understand where you are on all of this. It may help me and others a bit more on where you are in all of this.

Thanks !

USA former

Anonymous said...

USA Former -
Think about this.... Was the NT written verbatim by God, or is it a collection of letters, arguments, wrestling with ideas, accounts of actions etc? The NT is a template of how we as Christians are to wrestle with issues that face us - not the ultimate authority. The only ultimate authority is Christ on the Cross, then risen. There is no other ultimate authority beyond that. So yes, there is the possibility of new revelation today. There was new revelation in the early church that went WAY beyond scripture. Christ brought new revelation.

We need to wrestle with a whole plethora of issues today - and we have nothing more than a template on HOW to do that in the bible - not an authority on the issues that are not even thought about - let alone not mentioned.

Are Mormons going to be in heaven? Do they worship God? That is up to God to decide - not me. My God is TOO big for me to define and put into a single box. If I could do that, it would prove that my God is no god at all. Is polygamy OK? In some cases it may be, and others not. Just like in some cases, heterosexual marriage is wrong for two people, and others it is right. There are very few hard and fast rules. We must wrestle individually and as a church with all issues, using the template that is outlined in the NT.

Yours in Christ,
Graeme Randall
Former Australian East

Anonymous said...

Graeme,
Thanks for your response. Although we may not agree on everything (who does ?), we would agree that God reveals Himself in many ways. I still think that some do not put enough emphasis on the written word while others may go overboard. Balance. I really think (my personal view) that what is revealed is enough for this side of eternity but I would like to know more info from God. That is where faith comes into view. One day we will see and know much more but it will be in eternity before the King.

Jesus is Lord .

USA former

Anonymous said...

Dear USA former,

Amen! I couldn't agree more.

Daryl Lach
USA Central